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Episode Transcript

Vincent Boudreau00:06

Okay, welcome to From City to the World. I'm your host, Vince Boudreau, the President of T¾ÅÉ«ÊÓƵ. From City to the World is a show about how the work that we're doing at City College matters to people across the city and throughout the world. So, we'll be discussing the practical application of our research and solving real world problems like poverty and homelessness and mental health challenges. Today, we've got a really exciting show where we'll be talking about women and science and some of the science more specifically.

So, it is Women's History Month, and as we recognize the incredible contributions of women throughout history this month, today, we're going to continue that recognition by discussing the transformative opportunities in the sciences led by women in the field, both in general out in the world and here at City College. So, the Phase II CREST Center for Interface Design and Engineered Assembly of Low Dimensional Systems. I'm going to say that again. The Phase II CREST, that's C-R-E-S-T, Center for Interface Design and Engineered Assembly of Low Dimensional Systems. I'm going to take a shot and say low dimensional systems means super thin materials. That's IDEALS at CCNY.

It's a National Science Foundation funded program, and it aims to enhance the research capabilities of minority serving institutions and effectively integrate education and research. So, here at City College, the research activity of IDEALS is rooted both in integrating the research on these low dimensional systems into a range of programs intended to transform the experience of all graduate students and postdocs working in this field by developing them leadership skills, helping them obtain a global perspective and advance skills for success in academic and industrial workplace environments. So, throughout students' experience, they receive practical training in material science, device fabrication and characterization at the CUNY ASRC.

So, that's the science part of this, and we'll talk a little bit more about that real soon. But students also gain exposure and formal training and aspects of commercialization and entrepreneurship, intellectual property development, which develops and expands on their professional opportunities. This is really important given the federal investments that are being made in chips and semiconductors and all of these sorts of things. So, we want our scientists both to be able to do great science and also to be able to interface with the commercial side of things. To discuss the National Science Foundation CREST Center ideals and its impact on students here at City College, we have Professor Maria Tamargo. She's professor in the Department of Chemistry here at CCNY.

She's the director of the CREST IDEALS Phase II program here at CCNY. She began her professional career in 1978 as a member of technical staff at AT&T Bell Labs. In 1984, she moved to Belco before joining the faculty of chemistry department here at T¾ÅÉ«ÊÓƵ in January of 1993. At City College, she established a leading research program of the molecular beam epitaxial growth of semiconductor materials. I'm pretty sure City College had about the first epitaxy facilities in the city back when you started building those. So, this is a very important technology in producing new kinds of novel materials.

She's also pursued novel photonics applications such as visible light emitters, high performance voltaic, photovoltaics, infrared light emitters, and infrared sensors. Professor Tamargo's research has focused on the synthesis and characterization of semiconductor materials with technological applications. She's currently investigating novel materials known as topological insulators that are being vigorously pursued for advances in technology such as quantum computing. Again, I'm going to take a shot at this one. As I understand it, these are conducting materials where the conduction takes place over the surface of the material rather than through the material. So, that allows things to move much more quickly, and we'll get into that a little bit as we talk.

She's in the doctoral program in the chemistry, physics, and electrical engineering departments Over the years, she's also been deeply involved in advancing educational mentoring programs that strive for more diverse and inclusive participation in the sciences and in the engineering field. She's the author of over 325 research publications in peer-reviewed journals and book chapters, as well as several patents. She served as the Dean of Science at CCNY from 2001 to 2007. She holds a bachelor's degree in chemistry at the University of Puerto Rico, Rio Piedras, and a PhD in chemistry at Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore, Maryland. Professor Tamargo, welcome to From City to the World. We're really glad to have you today.

Maria Tamargo05:05

Thank you, President Boudreau. Happy to be here.

Vincent Boudreau05:07

Glad to have you. So, let's talk just a little bit. Before we talk about the work of women in STEM, I want to get a little bit of grounding in the work that you do, the science work that you do. So, you've had this wonderful career in semiconductor research. So, for researchers who may not be familiar with that, and as a way of correcting my limping explanation of your work, can you explain how your work implicates everyday technology and what it is that you're mainly focused on these days?

Maria Tamargo05:38

Okay. So, let me describe what our work is and you've already said a lot, but let me say it again and then try to go into how it might impact technology. So, over the years, my group has worked on synthesizing semiconductor materials and fabricating structures that combine these materials, multiple layered structures with the goal of understanding and improving their properties and exploring the real world applications that they may provide, usually through collaborations with physicists and engineers. So, we use this technique known as molecular beam epitaxy or we call it MBE for short for the synthesis of the materials.

It's a very intricate, sophisticated evaporation technique that allows the deposition of ultra-thin layers of highly ordered crystalline materials and stacks of these highly crystalline ultra-thin layers that have new and unique properties. The ultra-thin property is important. I think you've mentioned this because as many some people know, semiconductors properties are affected, are tuned by reducing their size down to the nanoscale. So, if we can go down to the nanoscale, we can explore a new phenomenon. The technique MBE is well suited for research, but it's also used in fabrication in commercialized station entities in industry that are doing these semiconductor materials. So, the students that work in our lab get experience in a real world technology.

So, we designed these new materials with novel and unique properties, and we also developed the synthetic process itself to make them better and have optimal properties. Now, over the years, we've worked on different materials and different structures, and some of them have found their way into particular real commercial applications, or if not directly been used, they have impacted the choices that industry has made in the commercial applications.

These include early on in my work semiconductor lasers used in light wave communication, lasers and light emitting diodes in displays, sensors used in health diagnostics, and materials and structures for interesting, affordable take devices in energy application. So, that's the scope of our work and the connection with the real world.

Vincent Boudreau08:13

Could you talk a little bit about this latest phase of the research with the-

Maria Tamargo08:16

So the topological insulators.

Vincent Boudreau08:19

That's what I was going to say. Yes.

Maria Tamargo08:21

So the top are semiconductors as well, but they're unique semiconductors. Actually, the traditional semiconductors in the new lingo are referred to as trivial semiconductors. While topological insulators are exotic semiconductors. They have this property where they have properties in the bulk of a semiconductor, but then their surfaces have highly conducting with other favorable properties, surface states that can conduct electricity unimpeded with very little or no use of energy. So, they're very, very attractive for a variety of novel applications like quantum computing. Although that transition between the material and the quantum computing, I'm not quite ready to describe in any detail. It's far away.

Vincent Boudreau09:20

When you look at a material like this, is the thing you're looking for energy efficiency? Is it the speed of the transmission? Is it something else that makes it really exciting for you?

Maria Tamargo09:34

The speed and the efficiency of the transmission is one aspect of the applications. I think the more detailed physics is very important. So, understanding some other properties like electrons have a property known as spin, which is not used traditionally in semiconductor or at least not very much in semiconductor technology. It opens up a whole new field of how to take advantage of these materials in semiconductor devices. So, something called spin momentum locking so that you can control the spin of the electron as well as the transport, electrical transport. So, that's just one.

Vincent Boudreau10:17

That does sound exotic. Let me ask you, some people love to do this, some people hate to do this, but if you can look ahead 10 or 20 years and you think about the trajectory of this technology, what should we be looking for, anticipating?

Maria Tamargo10:32

So yeah, that is a difficult question to answer. So, usually sometimes things happen quickly and discoveries happen quickly and they revolutionize the technology fast, but typically what we're working on in the lab now will only really be used 10 or 20 years from now. So, the things we're working on now are the ones that we should be looking at for making an impact. In my field, I think there is currently a revolution in materials discovery and design. New materials are being made with new physics that has to be learned and has to be explored. So, it's going to take some time to really fully put it in place. If I were to predict areas of growth, I mean, I'm not predicting them myself, everybody's talking about it obviously, communications technology.

Anything that has to do with transferring information, voice, image, data, so of course computing, it's basically how we do this is computing. So, the possibility of quantum computers, which we all hear about now as something, it's a totally new product. It's not just an incremental improvement on computing. It's just something different and much greater, multiplying the capabilities many times. So, that's one thing. How that's going to impact the world is not so clear yet. I think maybe some people have, but there are many other things that these materials, including the topological insulators are interesting for. Sensing is one possibility that these materials provide that is unique and improved or significantly enhanced towards from what we do now.

Vincent Boudreau12:34

Like medical sensing or you mean satellites?

Maria Tamargo12:36

So sensing of any kind, which includes health applications. So, changes in the way we diagnose illnesses or treat healthcare. Healthcare should be dramatically improved, atmospheric monitoring the environment so that we can better take care of things in time to resolve and make it more sustainable. Also, things like robotics and autonomous vehicles. There's a lot of things that new semiconductor materials can do to really advance all these things and give us all kinds of new gadgets that will make our life different and new and better hopefully.

Vincent Boudreau13:26

That's really exciting. I'd like now to just to pivot a little bit because it is Women's History Month and one of the things that ties this program together is the role of women in science. So, tell us just a little bit about your origins as a scientist. What got you interested in, I mean, first in science, but also in chemistry and material science? I mean especially material science, you were really a pioneer.

Maria Tamargo13:54

Well, so I was interested in science from a fairly early age in my studies. I'm not really sure exactly what turned me on. I was good at it. I guess that's part of usually how it works. By the time I was in high school, I had seemed to have selected chemistry as the area that I liked. I think at that time, I was really leaning towards biochemistry and biological applications and medicine. It's always very appealing for students. I then went on to my PhD and did chemistry, although I drifted away. I went more into the physical chemistry aspect. But the decision to go into material science was rather not something I chose with time. It was an opportunity that arose when I finished my doctorate and I applied for jobs and I had several options.

One that came up was something I had not really considered doing too much previously, but it was to go to join AT&T Bell Labs, which is a research lab, industrial research lab, which is quite known. I was going to be doing materials development there, change shift gears and do materials development. I found that exciting. I found it good to change and it seemed like a big challenge. So, I did it and I've stayed in materials development since then. So, one of the take home is don't be afraid to go after opportunities that you hadn't really planned because they may be a good decision that you make in your career.

Vincent Boudreau15:35

I'm guessing when you were starting out, there weren't a lot of women in leadership positions.

Maria Tamargo15:40

Or in any position.

Vincent Boudreau15:41

Or in any position.

Maria Tamargo15:42

In material science or in any position.

Vincent Boudreau15:46

I mean, I want to ask about the specific challenges you faced, but also this idea of not seeing someone who looked like you in that field. What was that like and how did you move past it if you did?

Maria Tamargo16:02

Yes. So, when you mentioned the big challenge, I mean the big surprise when I began working in Bell Labs doing this work was that I was, if not the only one, one of very, very few women and Hispanics. I mean both counts. It was a minority. So, I was the only woman in my very large 200 or so people unit that was doing this development work that I was doing. It was a little bit sometimes awkward and intimidating, mostly surprising. But fortunately, I was surrounded by a group of people, mostly men who were very supportive on the whole. So, I don't feel like I felt that I was victimized or in any way mistreated. In fact, I received good mentoring and good support. But there were things that there were detractions.

For example, you have to go to conferences and you have to present your work and you have to network and you're supposed to meet people and talk to them. Then there the atmosphere was much less welcoming and that was really disappointing and difficult, but I just had to focus and develop a little bit of a thick skin and go forward. It's changing. It's changed quite a bit. I was just at the American Physical Society March meeting, which is this huge meeting, and physics traditionally has trouble with women representation and it's changed dramatically. I mean, I could see lots of young women participating in the meeting, having a good time, I mean things that I did not experience in the early days. But you get over it, I guess, and you try to find the right people to connect with.

Vincent Boudreau17:59

Yeah. I'm going to ask what is maybe a delicate question, but it's the question of the moment. You're deeply involved in a program that's designed to diversify the field, bring more women in at a time when the winds of change are blowing against that and something that we think about institutionally all the time at City College. But I wonder, as a scientist, I'm not asking what's going to happen to your grant or any of that. I'm asking as an intellectual leader and a role model in the field, how do you face up to those counter currents?

Maria Tamargo18:44

Yeah, I mean I definitely think that the scientific community needs to continue to pursue and focus on diversity and inclusion as essential goals in the sciences. I think if we believe what science has shown that a more diverse and inclusive environment and ideas lead to better results in any activity and including in the sciences, we must do it. There's just no way of saying, "Oh, we're going to put it on hold for now." Now that being said, so we can't give up the goal. So, maybe there are some things we can try to strive for. For example, trying to make it clear that striving for diversity does not imply favoritism or unfair practices to others. That it is welcoming for everyone.

Vincent Boudreau19:43

Or lowering standards, which is in some ways the most insidious.

Maria Tamargo19:46

Or lowering standards. Right, right, right. So, clearing up and trying to teach or communicate these things so that it's clear is the only way to go forward until hopefully things become more-

Vincent Boudreau20:03

Better. Better is the word.

Maria Tamargo20:03

Yes. Just better. Yes.

Vincent Boudreau20:09

There's a kind of assumption at the core of a lot of this conversation about "what's wrong," I'm doing air quotes by the way, for those of you at home, with diversifying professions that if you attempt to diversify by bringing new people in, it must happen at the expense of other people. What's beautiful, I think, about the role of women and people of color in science is what you're actually doing is you're adding creative energy to the endeavor. There's no way to think about that as a zero-sum. I mean, let's talk a little bit about that. The work that you do is so collaborative. I mean, even when you talked about quantum computing, you have a part of it, but the whole thing requires all these other people. How is the collaboration at the core of the scientific endeavor benefited by the other work that you do in mentoring and diversifying the profession?

Maria Tamargo21:19

I mean, mentoring has become something really crucial in this whole endeavor. I think so mentoring as a factor for career success was really not considered so much way back when I began, when I was studying and when I started my career. They taught us our academic discipline need, things that we needed to know, and then they threw us there or we were thrown to sink or swim and do what you can. Clearly, there were mentors. There are people who wanted to be mentors, and I found some of those in the way, but they did it because that was their calling. It wasn't required or needed.

Now we have become aware of how important it is to put that in the mix if we really want to be inclusive and welcoming because there are other things that people need to address when they're embarking on a career. I think the results are good. More people succeed in a mentoring and nurturing environment. So, I'm not sure I'm answering your question exactly, but I think it's an essential part and it's a good development in STEM. In STEM especially, I mean, these things are all true in all ways of life, but because STEM suffers from a lack of some type of diversity, then I think we really need to make sure it happens.

Vincent Boudreau23:05

Yeah. I'm always struck when I see a scientist present research that you always have a slide that in the social scientists, I'm a political scientist, we don't have, which is a picture of all the people that have worked and it's sometimes 30 and 40 people in these pictures. It's wonderful. Can we talk just for a minute about the specific work that you're doing in ideals and the way that you augment the scientific education of the young people that work with you, with all the professional development leadership, and how do you think about that? What do you think are the most important aspects of it?

Maria Tamargo23:43

Right. We want to provide the students with extra things that will help them navigate the professional world. Leadership is obviously a very interesting one because people might think that leadership skills are for people who want to be the boss or want to be the one who's in charge. I don't think that's true. I think leadership in a more broad, general way, means learning to think independently, pursue your goals with knowing why, and in the way, persuade others that maybe your ideas are good and that they should listen to what you're saying. So, these traits are essential or not maybe essential, but certainly very, very favorable and good for anyone in any career in profession.

So, we have leadership skills, we have training in preparation for job, more practical ones, preparation for job hunting, how to interview, how to connect with people, and of course going out and giving talks in conferences. But that's always been done. Entrepreneurship, I think I see it as a more practical skill that scientists really should know about. Not everyone is an entrepreneur. Not everyone wants to do their own business, but for people who do, science lends itself because you're developing products that could be out in the market. It opens doors for job opportunities that you wouldn't have if you didn't know how to do it. So, we are trying to really incorporate that strongly into...

Vincent Boudreau25:39

Do you think that that entrepreneurial and the commercialization side is a little more proximate in the fabrication of low dimensional systems because of all the emphasis on chips development and all that?

Maria Tamargo25:54

There is a lot of activity going on. There's absolutely a lot and there's a lot of opportunity for doing things in different ways and there's a big boom and one has to be careful. There have been other times in the photonics time with the lasers where there was a big boom in entrepreneurship and then there was a lull, but I think right now, there is a very important place for people with ideas and the charge and the know-how to make it happen. There's a lot of potential.

Vincent Boudreau26:34

Yeah. Yeah. If we take a step outside of the lab setting and we start to think about institutions either at the college level, university level, or the profession, what should we be doing that we're not currently doing to expand inclusiveness and really invest in the success of young scientists like the ones you work with?

Maria Tamargo26:58

Okay, so to answer that question, let me think a little bit. So, I've been at City College for 30 years. The first 20 years or so, I was focused on my research and my career and making sure I went as far as I could with my technical work. Of course I was interested in inclusion and diversity because of who I am and because of where I am at City College. I mean, you can't not think about it. It was a great thing, but it was secondary now. Mostly since I became involved with IDEALS, but maybe a little bit before that, I've shifted my priorities. I think these other societal issues are really important and I would like to have an impact there. I think what I would say is that institutions have to look back.

That's something we're trying to do a little bit within ideals and look at what the root cause is for the lack of inclusion and the lack of diversity. Instead of just fixing it by let's bring more people, let's bring more students. For example, we're trying to increase the number of students. It doesn't work very well to enhance diversity among the students if the faculty ranks are not diverse or if the application pool is very small and not diverse. So, those go to look for those areas that are not being perhaps looked at as closely and really try to make a difference there. That would be my quick one advice, one piece of advice to how to go about this.

Vincent Boudreau28:53

Okay, good.

Maria Tamargo28:54

I'm sure there are many others.

Vincent Boudreau28:55

Well, I mean it's got to be the theme of our work for years, right? Just to keep expanding. Now, joining our conversation is Ms. Kyesha Ruffin. She's the founder and the CEO of Science in the City Incorporated. That's a New York City based organization that aims to disrupt intergenerational poverty through STEM education and workforce development. Science in the City strives to promote science education and engagement through events, workshops, and educational programs that make science more accessible and engaging. One of the most important events Kyesha is involved in is the Life Science Day, which is sponsored by the New York Economic Development Corporation in collaboration with Life Science Cares.

The event connects students to opportunities in biotech, life sciences, STEM pathways, and her work integrates technology into educational initiatives to prepare students for emerging roles in biotech, biopharma, and life sciences. By leveraging tools like generative AI and digital platforms, she ensures that students gain the skills needed to thrive in a tech-driven future. With nearly 20 years of experience as an educator in underserved communities, powered I should say, by City College education, Kyesha has dedicated her career to empowering students through equitable access to quality education and resources.

She believes technology can bridge socioeconomic gaps and emphasize the importance of holding it to ethical standards. Kyesha has developed a 12-week leadership program called City Ambassadors. So, funny. I saw that on the scripts. I kept correcting. I thought. So, autocorrect, Sci City Ambassadors, science and the city ambassadors, which advances workforce development by blending tech and civic training. She holds a master's in special education from T¾ÅÉ«ÊÓƵ and a master's in Educational Leadership from Fordham University. Kyesha, welcome to From City to the World. We're really glad to have you.

Kyesha Ruffin30:55

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Vincent Boudreau30:58

So Science in the City has a bold mission to break cycles of poverty through STEM. So, what inspired you to start this education or this organization?

Kyesha Ruffin31:09

I was a frustrated science teacher. I grew up in East Harlem, and I became a career changer. When I started teaching in East Harlem in the neighborhood I grew up in, I was really disappointed to see the access of science and opportunities that students had in the community. It really hurt me because I felt like it was so substandard that they weren't even getting what I had received 10, 12 years prior in middle school. So, I just felt like do something. Don't just complain, do something, start really small and figure it out and gather students and let's do something.

Vincent Boudreau31:54

So you've been doing this work for a while now and good to hear about the origins of the organization, but sometimes a mission of an organization comes alive when someone's able to talk about a success story. Do you have one or two favorite stories of somebody that benefited from their engagement with Science in the City?

Kyesha Ruffin32:13

Yeah, I actually have a student who's here at City College.

Vincent Boudreau32:17

At City College.

Kyesha Ruffin32:18

Yeah. So, Science in City has evolved, and it was really after the pandemic when I had a come to Jesus moment of, "What do I really want to do? How do I really want to impact the world?" I linked up with Life Science Cares, which is a great nonprofit organization that mission is to eradicate poverty. In that space, we had Life Science Day, we brought it together. From there, I had students who I said, "Well, what do you want to do?" They said, "Well, we definitely want to work in medicine. We want to work in bio." I have two students here that are going to City College that are doing well.

I have a student, actually three. I have a student who didn't even see himself in college. It was after going to Life Sciences Day that he saw himself even being a college student because Science in the City doesn't attract just necessarily the typical student who's already interested in science and they have this trajectory or this idea. It's like take kids who are curious, expose them, and let's see what happens after that. So, I even have a student who is a junior in high school now, but after attending Life Sciences Day, he said, "I thought I wanted to be a doctor, but now I want to go into biotech."

It was just because of the exposure of being able to go to a biotech company and see what's being done and then saying, "Oh, I think I could do this." I think there's so many. I have students who are now in their 30s. I'm like, "You're in your 30s. How are you in your 30s?" But I have students who have graduated and have come back to me and said, "It was you taking me out into the garden and showing me that there's engineering in gardening. That really sparked my interest of where I'm going and what I'm doing now." So a lot of stories and more to come. I have students all over in different universities that are doing great things.

Vincent Boudreau34:28

That's wonderful. I'm going to ask you in a second about the importance of events like Life Science Day. But before we get into that, tell me, if I went to Life Science Day, what would I see? What is it? How do you set it up? What does it look like?

Kyesha Ruffin34:40

So that's a great question. We're actually planning the next one for this year right now. So, what you would see, depending on where you go, biotech companies open up their doors and create extensive programming.

Vincent Boudreau34:53

So it's all over the city.

Kyesha Ruffin34:54

All over the city. It started with one, but I will say at a very nice biotech incubator cure, which is in Park Avenue South. The campus, it's great, is supported by Deerfield. That's where the first one, and it was so successful that the New York Economic Corporation said, "Let's expand this." So last year we had six biotech companies. I mean we even had Tasty, which is in Harlem. Literally, you can walk there from this campus.

Vincent Boudreau35:24

126th Street.

Kyesha Ruffin35:25

Yes, 126th Street. These kids live in these neighborhoods. You would never know that these places exist. So, if you were to go to Life Sciences Day, you would have programming in a biotech company, you would get to meet scientists, but also just professionals in the field. You would have workshops which are actually hands-on. You would even have some mini training, which we talk about being a professional and how you need to start to think about how you need to present yourself in the world, even talking about social media and then also able to connect and reconnect with the adults and professionals at the space. They have me, but they also have this access to this network where it continues.

Vincent Boudreau36:07

What's the youngest student that would be involved in this?

Kyesha Ruffin36:11

They would be 14 because there's high school. It's creating a pipeline literally from high school to the life science ecosystem and having them have ideas about where they want to go early on so that they can strive for it. It doesn't stop after high school because there's even access to internships.

Vincent Boudreau36:33

Do you do work with children that are younger than that or is that not your-

Kyesha Ruffin36:33

I do.

Vincent Boudreau36:34

You do?

Kyesha Ruffin36:34

No, I do. It's so funny. I have a 12-year-old and it's really interesting. I work with younger middle school students and it might start to get even younger. I even do even younger workshops when it comes to the gardening curriculum. But it was because parents would come to me and say, "This is so great, this is so great. What else can you do? Do you doing things for young kids?"

I actually have been doing an action research project with my daughter and friends for the last three years and watched them go from elementary school through middle school. So, it's a junior Science in the City ambassador program. They go with me anywhere I go to, not Life Sciences Day, but anything that I do in the city, I have a relationship with Randall's Island where I work with them four times a year. They're there tabling, talking to the public. It's just amazing to see girls who are like eight and nine years old, they're about to be 13, and see how they've bloomed and blossomed by being able to have access to experiences like that.

Vincent Boudreau37:35

Okay. I'm going to say something to you and to anyone who might be listening, because you just rang a little bell in my head. We have community gardens on this campus, and this happens every year. Everybody's on campus in May. Some people around in June when you plant the crops. But then over the course of the summer, the campus empties out.

So, I'm saying to you or anyone who's listening, if you're working with children, which is what we always thought, the attraction to this community garden would be, and you want to give them a site to work on plants, harvest plants, learn the connection between growing food and eating food. City College has a site where we would work with you on that. So, both for you and for anyone listening, but now let me take a step back from Life Science Day and ask you why are these kinds of events important? What impact does it make on the people that go there?

Kyesha Ruffin38:26

Well, it's so important because if you don't know, you don't know. So, it's the exposure. It's the seed that just planted into the minds of young people where they see a possibility of a world for them that's beyond what's traditionally told to them. It's them coming back home and talking about what they've experienced and knowing that this exists in their backyard. That's what's so important about it. You need to expose young people so they can make a decision or just develop more of their curiosity.

Vincent Boudreau39:00

I'm going to ask you something that maybe weren't prepared to answer, but it jumps off the page. Because part of your mission is putting a stop to intergenerational poverty.

Kyesha Ruffin39:10

That's right.

Vincent Boudreau39:11

So do you see the knowledge that these young people are acquiring as they work with you going the other direction, filtering up? Are they educating their families as well? How does that work?

Kyesha Ruffin39:23

So much so. Not only are they educating their families, they want to bring family members to events, maybe other events that I do. It might not be Life Science Day, but maybe community events. Not just that, let's just be clear, these jobs pay well and that is the bottom line. I want young people to have access to what's out there for them and not all of the positions that they are interested in require 8, 10 years of education. They find that out even from the panelists at the events. You have scientists who said, "Oh, I started in community college," or "Oh, I started as a doctor," but then I realized I didn't want to be a doctor, but I loved business. So, I created a business and then I sold and I exit. We exit at $1 billion. They would never meet these people or know these stories and know that they're attainable if they didn't have this access.

Maria Tamargo40:24

I just wanted to just interject quickly here. You had asked me, what can be done? I was saying, looking at the root cause of the problems. I mean, if this isn't a perfect example really of trying to do something really where it matters, it's fabulous. It's really good.

Kyesha Ruffin40:45

Thank you.

Vincent Boudreau40:46

Let's now talk a little bit about, Kyesha, one of the things that is innovative in the way you approach this work is you're integrating technology like generative AI. Could you talk a little bit about how that works, and especially how the young people take to it?

Kyesha Ruffin41:02

Well, young people have taken to it already. I mean, sometimes we have to catch up and probably catch up and guide. So, there's twofold because there's training that's done on a level for educators who are really afraid of generative AI. You would be surprised how many educators don't use it or have a misconception of what it can do or be in a classroom. So, there's that one aspect where exposing teachers and training them on how to use what's even they have access to for free and all these products. But then there's the part where we use things like Meta's VR, right? Virtual reality where they can go on field trips, where they can see the International Space Station, or they can see the Great Barrier Reef.

So, when I'm talking about experiences I've had as an educator, I worked and did some work at the Glenn Space Research Station in Cleveland, Ohio and NASA with a bunch of teachers, and I'm talking about my experience. They can go on their VR and see what I'm talking about. Or when I went to Cayman Islands and I got a fellowship to do some work about... There was work on lionfish, which are invasive species in the Caymans. I got to work with teachers and do that work. They can visualize it. They see a representation that looks like them that have done this stuff, but then they also get to travel and envision. That really deepens their curiosity and their desire to want to do these things.

So, I meet students where they are like, let's go with games, let's try gamification to have them understand it. Let's even go into something as simple as Amazon where they have AR. When you go to Amazon and you want to see how something looks in your room, that's AR. That's augmented reality where you can put an image inside your room and see how it would fit. I just show them how it's already being done in everyday use. Let's take it to the next level to expose science ideas.

Vincent Boudreau43:11

So what's so exciting about the way you talk about this work is you talk about it as if the barriers are just being knocked down. AI, augmented reality brings it all right to the children, but we know the barriers still exist. So, can we talk a little bit about what is still out there that is standing in the way?

Kyesha Ruffin43:32

Well, mindset is a big barrier that people don't talk about. We already know money, funding is so important to put funding behind these ideas. These things don't happen just because we want them to. We have to actually fight for it and actually demand it. Also, the reason why I say mindset is a big barrier, which you wouldn't maybe think I would say, is because we first have to teach the young people that education is an entitlement. It is not something that is something they need to ask for or if they're special, they'll get this type. It's like you are entitled to see the world and to learn about things and to believe that you can be more than your surroundings.

So, that's one of the biggest barriers is shifting the mindset so that people could want to fight for things or want more, instead of being told this is your space and stay in your space. I've noticed that when you expose young people, they start to think differently. They bring that back home. They start to say, "Hey, let's do this. Let's go here, mom," or "Oh, I heard this was happening. Can you take me here?" It changes even the experiences that the family has, and that's really important. So, I would say first a mindset. Then I would say, of course, funding can be a huge barrier because we need the funding for our projects like this. We just do.

Vincent Boudreau45:06

Who supports the work that you do? I mean, do you get these same biotech companies that open their doors? Are they vigorous supporters of this work?

Kyesha Ruffin45:16

That is an interesting-

Vincent Boudreau45:17

Not asking you to tell any trade secrets.

Kyesha Ruffin45:21

Actually, yeah. I mean, the biggest supporter right now is my partnership with Life Science Cares and the New York Economic Corporation, that's the most. They are the vigorous supporters and they see the vision so much so that the first year, because this part is relatively new. The first year was one, second year was six. Now we're talking 10 and we're talking 10, not just in Manhattan. Now it's the Bronx, Jersey, Manhattan. So, we definitely still need to do a lot of work to get the word out and get the support there because we know it's there. Sometimes things just need to be funneled or need to be cleared, and so that they can see the definite impact that it's having on young people and on the community as a whole. But I'm confident. I'm confident.

Vincent Boudreau46:17

So let me tell you, this was not an idle question. Ladies and gentlemen out there listening, I want to give Kyesha an opportunity, if someone is listening to this and thinks this is something I really want to support, how do they get in touch with you?

Kyesha Ruffin46:31

Oh, that is great.

Vincent Boudreau46:34

Come on now.

Kyesha Ruffin46:35

Well, you can go to my website. That's the best way to reach out to me. There's a connect, it's . It shows pictures, images of everything we're doing. There's a contact. There's an info. There's even for Sci City ambassadors out there who are not yet Sci City ambassadors. If you're interested in, you're a young person, you can go on the website and find out how you can join in on the next things that we have going on. No, thank you for that opportunity because we need all of it.

Vincent Boudreau47:10

So if you didn't have your pen when she said that, I'm going to give her an opportunity at the very end of the show to repeat that website, but I'm not done with you yet. I want to talk a little bit about your Sci City ambassadors and your blending. I mean, in the same way that Dr. Tamargo's program blends some of the commercialization and leadership training with the science. You're doing the same, but you're blending it with civic education. Can you tell me how you think about those two things?

Kyesha Ruffin47:36

Well, so much of what I do comes from my own experience. I might be dating myself now, but when I was at the dinner table and I was younger, we always had conversations about what was going on in the world so much so I remember being, I think I was 10. I remember saying that I was not going to wear a Reebok, which was really popular in the '80s, because they needed to divest from South Africa. I just remember saying stuff like that at such a young age because we talked about what was going on and how we can't just live in a space where we don't think about the world and people around the world.

I think that when you teach young people how to engage civically, it makes them more critical thinkers. They are able to solve complex problems. They can see the world, how diverse it is and see different perspectives, and it just makes a better workplace. I think it's so important to show young people that they have power. I couldn't vote at 10, but I still felt like at 10, I could do something. I felt really powerful about that. We get our young people to find out, "Who are your council people? Who are your assembly people? Who are we calling in Congress? Who are our senators?" We need to know who these people are so that when you're ready and you're voting, you already have this education.

Vincent Boudreau49:06

Yeah, yeah. Before I took this job, I used to teach political science here at City College and the number of articles about the role of scientific communities in the advancement of things like nuclear disarmament or environmental protective, things that politicians can't necessarily do, scientists develop a consensus and then are able to bring that into the political sphere. So, I love this idea that civic education goes hand in hand with scientific education. Last question for you, if I'm a young person listening to this and I'm like, "Not really sure this is for me," what would you say to a young person who's not sure that it's time to jump in and get involved in Science in the City?

Kyesha Ruffin49:54

I'd say I love that you're even thinking about what's for you and what's not for you because that means that you're on the right track already. I would say come out into some of our events. They're not all Life Sciences Day. Sometimes we do work with, like I said, Randall's Island where we do community events and we have people come out. We even have Sci City ambassadors help table and interact with the community. We do things where we were working with a school in Senegal and we were fundraising so that they could have classes in the summer and have materials to do their...

Actually, they were doing quantum physics. They were actually doing that and they needed materials and just basic stuff. We were actually fundraising for food because they had a scientist working with them, but they didn't have any money for food. So, we were fundraising. So, they would have lunch every day and then just say, "You know what? The world of STEM is bigger than just being a scientist or thinking of being a doctor." It's really being a citizen. They could find pathways to those spaces, whatever they're interested in.

Vincent Boudreau51:03

Okay. All right. Well, listen folks, here's what we've done today. We started out talking about some of the pioneering years that Dr. Tamargo had when there weren't so many women involved in STEM and moved it to where we're at right now with programs like the IDEALS program at City College and Science in the City. But always thinking about what's next, not just for the scientific pathways, but also for the effort to bring more women, more people of color, people from diverse backgrounds into the science field.

So, I think Kyesha, where we ended with young people thinking about where they want to be, this is for everybody. We're not going back to where we were back when you were at Bell Labs, but we still have a lot of work to do to make sure that anyone with interest and drive and curiosity can find a place in a STEM field. That's got to be a birthright. So, Kyesha, I'm going to give you one more chance. Ladies and gentlemen, I hope you got your pens and your pencils out there. What's the website that they should go?

Kyesha Ruffin52:12

The website is , which is . I would really love if you just go on the website, see what we have going on, and if you want to support, support, and if you want to get involved, get involved. We have opportunities for people to get involved in community events as well and maybe even the garden at City College.

Vincent Boudreau52:33

There you go. Dr. Tamargo, if someone is thinking about going to college or going to graduate school or maybe being involved in ideals, what would you say to them as a Women's History Month capper here?

Maria Tamargo52:45

By all means, go for it. Come also visit our website and come to the Graduate Center website and look at opportunities here. I do want to give my website for the center.

Vincent Boudreau53:00

Please do.

Maria Tamargo53:01

It's .

Vincent Boudreau53:12

Okay. Fantastic.

Maria Tamargo53:13

Thank you.

Vincent Boudreau53:14

Thank you to both of you. This has been such a good conversation. To the audience, I want to say thank you for listening to From City to the World. Special thanks once again to our guest, Professor Maria Tamargo, who is the Director of the National Science Foundation CREST Center IDEALS, and she's a City College alum. Oh, and also City College alum, Kyesha Ruffin, who is the founder and CEO of Science in the City. This show was produced by yours truly, Vince Boudreau, also by Kezia Sullivan. Thanks everybody.